tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24215087.post3328018534971306577..comments2023-05-14T07:51:18.017-05:00Comments on The Suburban Christian: George Fox Q&A: "Consuming Christianly" or "being consumed by Christ"?Al Hsuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04407264726681695790noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24215087.post-79664861738556294982008-09-25T12:21:00.000-05:002008-09-25T12:21:00.000-05:00chickchaotic, i whole-heartedly agree with your as...chickchaotic, i whole-heartedly agree with your assessment. if we are only against consumer culture and not for something, we only trade in one culture (that of the consumer) for another. <BR/><BR/>until we begin to live for something (I agree that it should be for the kingdom of God) we still end up consuming. countless christians consume sermons, christian books and music, etc. which are counter to and present ideas counter to the prevailing culture. what good does it do, however, without these christians taking what they have consumed and applying it in their lives so that they can begin to live in such a way as to see God's kingdom come and His will be done.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14296973291803868457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24215087.post-63861559485197690352008-09-24T13:12:00.000-05:002008-09-24T13:12:00.000-05:00Spot on, chickchaotic. It's not enough to be again...Spot on, chickchaotic. It's not enough to be against consumer culture (or any negative force or phenomenon). We need to be promoting a better way. As many have said, it's not enough to curse the darkness; we need to light candles.<BR/><BR/>I'm big on Andy Crouch's model of Culture Making. It's not enough to condemn culture or critique it. We don't change culture by condemning it or critiquing it or copying it or consuming it. The only way we change culture is to create culture, to make new and better alternatives. When the church creates a countercultural community that looks different from the world as usual, we introduce the possibility that life can be lived differently. <BR/><BR/>To use Andy Crouch's phrase, culture making "moves the horizons of the possible." Many of our suburban neighbors can't imagine anything other than consumerism - it's just the default setting. But if we build communities where people practice simplicity and generosity and are characterized by contentment, that moves the horizons of the possible and makes such a life more possible to them.Al Hsuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04407264726681695790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24215087.post-85405981148871378772008-09-24T13:00:00.000-05:002008-09-24T13:00:00.000-05:00I understand the idea of countering consumer cultu...I understand the idea of countering consumer culture, but without the "what for" part of the equation we can get stuck in being against something instead of being for something. One thing I find helpful in countering consumer culture is being for Kingdom culture. Now I know, this is broad and vague, but an example of this arose this morning as my 14 year old was reviewing her vocabulary and testing my knowledge of words. She read her schoolbook definition of frugal: economical, avoiding waste and luxury. My husband and I would consider ourselves frugal - but our motivation for being frugal is so that we can be a blessing to others. We discussed this a bit this morning, reviewing the pictures of the kids we support through World Vision in Africa. We are not just against consumerism, we are for something - we have a reason to resist the temptations. Without a reason to resist, I fear too many Christians succumb to the overpowering influence of our consumer culture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24215087.post-65552430879340828552008-09-24T06:25:00.000-05:002008-09-24T06:25:00.000-05:00Josh - Thanks for your comment! Very helpful thoug...Josh - Thanks for your comment! Very helpful thoughts. I'm also big on the church being a counterculture (ever since reading Rodney Clapp's A Peculiar People some years ago), and I mention later on in the book that the church must be both contextualized and countercultural. This is a tension that we all walk, because we have to resemble our context in many ways in order to be incarnational in our ministry, but we also need to resist the negative aspects of our culture and point people to the countercultural reality of the kingdom.<BR/><BR/>One of your comments makes me think that some churches/Christians are too overspiritual, and others are underspiritual, and each local community (and pastoral leadership) needs to be a good diagnostician in understanding what corrective is needed! Yes, both poles are dangerous - on the one hand some Christians are too privatized and narcissistic in their overly spiritualized faith, and on the other hand many Christians are just co-opted by secular culture at large. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for your kind words about the book - I'm glad you're finding it helpful! Peace -<BR/><BR/>AlAl Hsuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04407264726681695790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24215087.post-82254612615966963552008-09-23T13:54:00.000-05:002008-09-23T13:54:00.000-05:00You wrote, "I think you're getting at the question...You wrote, <BR/><BR/>"I think you're getting at the question of whether even using the framework of consumption is in some way capitulation to consumer culture's values and worldview."<BR/><BR/>That was exactly the point that I was trying to get at. It seems as if the church continually capitulates to the prevailing culture (the framework of consumption just being one of the most recent examples). <BR/><BR/>I live in rural Pennsylvania. Just a few minutes away from where I live and worship is a large Amish community. While there are both good and bad aspects to the Amish way of life (the tendency toward legalism and works righteousness being the most commonly cited "bad" aspects), the Amish are undeniably a "peculiar people." <BR/><BR/>Yet, there is something rather beautiful about the simplicity with which they live. Many of the Amish are extremely wealthy, yet they choose to live in such a way that they go against the prevailing current of our culture.<BR/><BR/>Don't misunderstand me, I am not advocating that we become Amish. I am simply saying that, by not capitulating to the prevailing consumerist culture, they are vividly showing forth to the world the counter-cultural nature of the Christian faith.<BR/><BR/>When it comes to how you responded to my question, I would simply like to say two things. First, you suggest that what is required is a "reorientation of rooting our identity as citizens of the kingdom of God as opposed to as consumers of this consumer culture." I could not agree more. Moreover, I greatly appreciate your practical suggestions as to what this might involve.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, your "quibble," as you refer to it, is spot on. Human language has its limitations to be sure, and my phrase of choice is a wonderful example. It can lead to a gross overspiritualization, to be sure. Your language of being equipped, mobilized, and deployed is far more accurate; and it better conveys the thrust of what I was initially thinking.<BR/><BR/>Yet, even as I write that, something within me feels compelled to assert that there are many in our churches for whom it might be rather profitable to "be consumed by God." While that phrase can lead to an overspiritualized understanding of life, it seems that for the vast majority of the natural tendency is toward underspiritualization.<BR/><BR/>In the end, I think we are talking about the same thing. What I am attempting to explain, you summarized this way, "Ideally, we should all be fully devoted to Jesus, to 'be consumed by him,' but in the sense of living actively for the sake of the kingdom, in whatever ways he has called us and gifted us to live."<BR/><BR/>I have really enjoyed the book. I felt that it was well-written and incredibly thought-provoking. Also, thank you for taking the time to answer some of the questions that have surfaced over the course of our reading and discussions.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14296973291803868457noreply@blogger.com